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Chuck: Okay, welcome, and thanks for joining me today and innovators on tap.
Kate: Thanks for having me, Chuck.
Chuck:I thought it would be great to have you on the show to help me give people you know, a little more background on on the podcast, and how it fits into what we're trying to do at innovation alley, but probably before we do that, it would be best if it gave us a little bit of background on the elite program.
Kate: Sure. So the E-Lead program is really the vision of an incredible leader that we have here at Marquette, the current Dean of the College of Engineering, Dr. Chris repeller. And she knew several years ago that we really needed to both develop our engineering students to be outstanding technical engineers, but also really great leaders who know how to lead in service of others. So I'm the founding director of the program. We started it in 2014. And the LEAD program is a three year curricular leadership development program for our undergraduate engineering students. In the first year, we focus on leading oneself and the second year leading with others Third year on leading technology and innovation. And we've got exciting news this year, we're going to expand the program beyond our engineering students. And we're going to have 20 non engineering students join a first year cohort this year with 20 engineering students, so up to 40 students from all across campus.
Chuck: So, Kate, as you know, I think it's great that we're expanding the program, because I think it's going to give it just a richness that it didn't have before. Can you give us a little bit more background on how you came to this idea.
Kate: So in the pilot phase of our program, we always envisioned expanding the program. So it started with 20 students per year from the College of Engineering that were selected. We also know our engineering graduates aren't going to go out into the world and only work with other engineers. And we know also leadership and innovation are team sports. And so to have our engineering students and other students learning together, we know that the challenges that our students face in the real world are going to be solved by teams that really can successfully incorporate lots of different perspectives and so We're excited to have that happen in this classroom as we're developing this capacity, this mindset and this approach to leading innovation.
Chuck: So you guys have been doing this program, I think this is your five or six. And as you look at what you've learned so far, what do you think the biggest challenge that the students face when they try to take on this idea of innovation?
Kate: You know, I think it's both a challenge for our students. I also think this is this is human nature. I think it's a challenge for many people beyond our students. Fear of failure, a lot of people are averse to risk and for good reason, right? I think that comes from different places for different people. But as you and I have talked a lot, being able to embrace failure as a learning opportunity, and sometimes as the starting point for something new or really great. That's a really integral part of innovation.
Chuck: So Kate, I think is you know, obviously the concept of failure and learning and the term I like to use is failures. The fuel of innovation is really core to a lot of stuff. I've been Working on. But maybe let's step back a second, I think it might be interesting to give the audience a little perspective of how we got started on this innovation journey.
Kate: So I think it was about a little bit more than a year ago, maybe spring of 2018. And after hearing you give a speech on campus, hearing some of your ideas about innovation, I had an opportunity to sit down and talk with you a little bit. And I did what felt like a really big risk, big risky thing at the time. And I invited you to review the curriculum of our elite program. And I remember sort of the the inner voice in my head, having this debate like, okay, should I ask him to look at this, or what if he looks at it, and he says, lads, you're totally missing the mark. I think a lot of people because of your roles at Marquette. The success of your career might have just tried to stay under that radar a little bit. And I said, Hey, Chuck, would you look at the curriculum, and you very, very graciously took a very, very, very detailed look. Got it and provided us just some incredible, incredible feedback that I think has righted the course shifted the trajectory in a really positive direction. Because at the end of the day, here's the thing. It's not about me and what I created or what we created as a program, it's how can we deliver the best curriculum possible for the students that have the opportunity to come in and out of our classroom in and out of our program? I'm going to turn the tables a little bit on you. How did you come to the idea of starting this podcast check?
Chuck: Well, you've told part of the story, right? So it really started with writing the book and, and the book was really about me exploring my experiences at cre and the things we actually did to make innovation happen. And along the way of doing that, I had a chance to do a lot of research and meet people who are pursuing innovation in all kinds of different places. As I gathered their ideas and thoughts and insights, it became pretty obvious to me that we've put innovation kind of In this box of the tech executive or the famous CEO, and it's much bigger than that, and it's in all kinds of different places. And so what I wanted to do is the book is really my story. The podcast is about these other people's stories and really testing these principles with them, and getting their own unique insights that I hopefully will. It'll really help people gain some knowledge that they can then use in their own lives to go try this themselves.
Kate: So Chuck, are there any themes that have emerged from the podcast so far has you've interviewed several different guests?
Chuck: Well first, every guest has been unique and surprising in ways I didn't expect, which is the best part of the podcast. I think if there was some themes I wanted to give you so far. It's kind of where we started this conversation. All innovators see failure as learning. They don't see it as failure. innovators also, when they see a problem, they also see the opportunity that comes from that problem. If I was to add a third one, it would be I think they view risk differently. They're not worried about what happened. If they try it and it doesn't work, they really want to know, what would happen if they didn't take the risk. Like, that's the biggest worry. And I think that's a very different perspective for most people. Because I think innovators, ultimately, they focus on the problem and not themselves, which I think really changes your perspective is really critical to finding your innovator spirit.
Kate: So if any of your thoughts or opinions changed as a result of any of the interviews that you've done,
Chuck: You know, I don't know that I've changed any of my core ideas. But I would tell you that in many cases, the conversations have either maybe reconfirmed something I thought, were actually giving me a perspective that's different than I had before. So, you know, give me an idea. I've come to appreciate that. While some of the principles, they're the same. They often look Different than when applied to different situations. And, and those differences can be pretty important to success. You know, for example, I ran a technology company. And there are a set of behaviors that I think if you read about most tech stories, they look pretty similar. But I interviewed Darren Jackson who pursued innovation in a large established retailer. And while the beliefs that drove the behaviors were the same, the behaviors actually looked different in that environment. I think it's critical for people to realize that it's not what it looks like, it's what's underlying it, what really drove it that makes it work. And that's why this is so important to make this about beliefs, because the behaviors can often get misinterpreted and mis applied. And then I would also tell you that I think you know, on the other side that the thing I've confirmed is that innovation is fundamentally a leadership problem. The more you look at what we teach people about management, and when I say management, not just traditional management, training, but really what we give them their whole lives. Fundamentally is in the way of the things it takes to be good at innovation.
Kate : So you've got this idea for a podcast, Chuck, how do you come up with the name innovators on tap?
Chuck: So the name came from an idea from back when I was running Cree. So we would often be sitting around and you'd be working with someone on a problem, and he would just be getting stuck. And after talking for a few minutes, it was like, you know, what, how about we go out and get a beer after work. And the idea is we go sit down, and whether it was a pint of beer or a glass of wine, or honestly, just getting out of the work environment, it would create a dynamic where all of a sudden, you could see possibilities that just weren't there before. And the other thing I found is, you got people to be open minded or freer with what they were really thinking. And so the ideas became fresher. And I thought, you know, what a better way to describe what I'm trying to do on this podcast. Which is not to talk about the stuff people have already talked about to get those insights, you know, what makes you tick the way you tick? Because I think if we're going to get into the beliefs, we've got to get to that level. And so innovators on tap was my did recreate that concept that we did at CRI. And have those type of conversations.
Kate: So we've talked Chuck, about this idea of failure. You have have often said, and then and I've heard you say in our conversation today, that failure is the fuel of innovation. I know you ask your guests a lot about their biggest failure. I'm going to turn the tables on you chuck a little bit and just ask if you can share with our audience about what has been your biggest failure.
Chuck: You know, when you asked that I'm sitting here going, I'm not sure where to start. But I think it's important to point out that I didn't consider them failures at the time, maybe what were my biggest learning opportunities or things that did not go as expected? And like I said, there's a long list but how about you know, I started a business that didn't work out and we had to shut it down. I remember several times when demand got really high for our products. And so we would shift r&d resources into production to meet demand, only to realize, a year later, that now we were behind a competitor on the product front. And then there's a third one, which is I even tried to sell one of our businesses. And luckily, that business was was not approved by the government. And today, that business is now the fastest growing part of the company and actually driving the whole next growth base. So I've had a lot of learning experiences. But if I went back and said, What's the biggest quote, mistake or thing I would do differently? It really is around people. So we were good at finding people to come in and help us take on a challenge. And then to help us oftentimes build a business. But as that business got larger and scaled, oftentimes what people are good at and what the job is. entailed became two different things. I think I recognized it relatively quickly. But I was slow to make changes. And I would have told you at the time was probably out of loyalty. But it was more of an excuse I it was hard to make those changes. But what I learned in the end was, there wasn't a single time when that happened, that I didn't realize later that we could have made the decision much earlier and it would have been better for the company. And the person makes me think of kind of a game of chess, right. And if you think of leadership, like chess, and you have different talents, different pieces that you use for different times and different things, and often we don't take the big enough perspective of the whole game board, to try to figure that out and sort of detach ourselves from, you know, holding on to the piece to realize sort of what else can happen if we were to bring in a different piece or move someone to a different place. What we heard in one of my interviews at trek was they had a saying there, that was If you think you have a people problem, you have a people problem. But I just think is so many of us, especially ones that lead through relationships and other things. It's really hard to separate those two. But there's not a situation where I thought I had one that in the end, I didn't. And I think it's just a thing I try to keep in mind more today than ever before. You know, since we're on the topic about what my biggest failure was, let's, let's flip it around. So what was your biggest failure? And what did you learn from it?
Kate: You know, you talked about not necessarily having seen things as failures at the time. And I think my example that I'll give is probably in that same vein, and I definitely don't see it as a failure now, because of the lessons learned. I think other people saw it as a failure. But when I was when I was in college, I picked the wrong and I'm using air quotes here wrong. Major. I didn't have the courage to change it at the time I was majoring in accounting, but I really knew I think deep down that that's not what What I wanted to do, you know, I didn't have the courage but I also didn't really know what else I would do. My siblings have very successful, recognizable careers that family members can point to and say, I know what they do. You know, I go visit a doctor, I go to a physical therapists and so it felt like I needed to have one of those. And I got a really great job offer right out of undergrad and it was an offer that couldn't refuse right doing financial analysis for a really reputable company. But pretty quickly after I started that job, I knew no great paycheck, no great perks. Were going to be enough to get you out of bed in the morning to stop hitting the snooze button. When your heart really wasn't in what what you were doing. I figured there had to be more to this adult life than what I was was experiencing. So you know, I did a lot of soul searching at the age of 23. What is it that I'm supposed to do with this one shot that I get it life So luckily, I had some really great mentors around me, you know, who helped help guide that decision. But I think the failure in all of it was not really paying attention to and acting on what I already knew deep down. So really similar, I think in your own answer. It's just the timing right is that there's things that we know that if we slow down, we unplug enough, even our physical body is telling us, you know, what should happen or that things aren't right. So I really, you know, I stuffed away warning signs that I was on a path that I wouldn't like, I avoided what I perceived to be the real risk of pursuing this career in education. You know, taking the road less traveled would be a think way that my family would describe it. But ultimately, I don't think I would change anything. My degree in accounting and finance. I think the experiences that I've had my understanding of the business world in general, are all the things that make me Better at my job today that I bring a much different perspective to the classroom, because I've had those experiences, and I have that background. So if it had happened a different way, I wouldn't have learned some really valuable life lessons. And that failure was really the start of something incredible. So I just talked a little bit about my professional journey. And I'm curious, is there anything about your own innovation journey that you wish more people knew about?
Chuck: I think people look at what we accomplished at Cree. And they assume that it, it all just worked. But they're only looking at our successes, because it was truly a journey that we were on. You know, I like to tell people there's much easier ways to make money than pursuing innovation. So you better have a love for the game, because otherwise this is not the right path for you. You know, if I think from my perspective, I think the other thing people misunderstand is it took me a while to find my own innovator spirit. I had to learn to really embrace risk. And to really develop this mindset of what I like to say is to become unafraid of failure, yet unwilling to fail, and it doesn't just happen. You have to work at it. And you have to be willing to look in the mirror and challenge some of those beliefs that you've been taught. And that can be really hard. And I think the first step in this and the step that most people who struggled don't want to take is it starts with looking in the mirror. That's the person that this is really all about.
Kate: So I think if some of my students had the chance to sit here in front of the microphone and ask you a question, Chuck, I think for so many of them, I hear them say, really frequently. Well, that's them, look at where they're at. We have to remind them they've been on the earth longer than you have. They have a little bit more experience under their belt. So if you were to to talk with someone who is you know, in college right now just starting out in their professional career What do you know now that you wish you had known at the beginning of your journey?
Chuck: This is one of my favorite questions to ask people as well. And in my case, the answer is, it's everything. And nothing. I've learned so much along the way, it's really hard to come up with one thing that stands out, and at the same time, not knowing was often an advantage. Because I didn't know what wasn't possible. And when you start to look at people's stories about why they're able to do this so often, that's a key element of it. If I had to tell your students something, I think it would be to make time each day to reflect on what's really important and focus on those things. I think too often we either try to do everything, or we simply react to whatever comes our way. And the ability to focus is probably one of the most powerful tools not only for innovation, but for their life in general.
Kate: I think a lot about for very young people, this, this world that they grow up in, everything is so produced. So this idea that people only look at the successes of cre, they don't see all the failures along the way. That's the stuff that gets left on the cutting room floor, right that of life that people don't want to put out there on social media that they don't talk about. And so we have a generation of young people that are growing up in a world where everything's perfect, right? People only put out about themselves on Facebook and Instagram, the best moments of their life, and not the moments that are hard. Or the moments that were they you know, where things aren't great.
Chuck: Well, I think that's one of the challenges of trying to help people develop as innovators, because innovation is really about mastering this idea of trying things and most of them not working and learning from them. So if your perception is everything's perfect, two problems are going to happen. You're going to be unemployed. to try things, but more importantly, more importantly, you'll never learn anything. You know, many people have said and including on this podcast that you learn far more from failure than you ever do from success. And so I think it's really important to get them past this artificial world they live in. It might be interesting if we could take them out of that instant environment for some period of time and let them just relax and learn.
Kate: You have all these really great conversations with all these really amazing people who have accomplished so much. And and, you know, as you as you think about this podcast check, what are you hoping people will learn?
Chuck: You know, kind of, as I said in the beginning, I think it's really I want listeners to get ideas from these other people's stories, that they can apply themselves in their own innovation journey. And I also hope people are inspired to challenge themselves and realize that there really is no box you're really only limited By whatever boundary conditions you put on yourself, and so take those away and just see what's possible.
Kate: You talked earlier about sort of it took you a while to uncover your own innovator spirit. But how do you think the experiences in your childhood affect your thoughts on innovation, and just in general, how you approach life today?
Chuck Well, so I grew up in a family of six kids. And I think in that dynamic, you gain some really valuable insight and people skills, you know, including the ability to influence others. I think it also forces you to figure out how to do some things on your own because it's really just not enough time for your parents to help you do everything. I also learned the value of hard work and really what it's like to be part of a team. You know, my parents had really high expectations, which for me, really helped me realize that almost anything is possible if you set your mind to it. At the same time, I always felt love which helped me develop a car confidence in myself, I think a willingness to take risk, which has been really critical for the journey I've been on.
Kate: So, Chuck, you have a new role in the College of Engineering here at Marquette. And I'm curious as you think about that role, your upcoming book release, what do you see as the future for innovation alley yourself and and how that's all connected to market?
Chuck: You okay, the reason I got interested is that despite all this talk about innovation, all the talk about tools and processes, I think most everyone's still missing the main point, that innovation is fundamentally about people. And I think markets, judgment roots in developing the whole person and working around leadership development. I think we can bring these things together to make innovation alley, the home for developing great leaders, generally and great leaders of innovation. Specifically, I think we can develop people that are prepared for this incredibly complex ethical and moral questions that technology is going To create for them. And I think it's really missing today. I want to help market deal with the change that is coming to higher education because well, so many people are worried about what's going to be different. What I want them to see is what I've seen my whole career is that change creates opportunities. And I want them to realize that we, if you embrace those opportunities, we can truly do things that they thought weren't possible before. So Kate, maybe as we wrap up here, I'd love to just give you a chance to share any final closing thoughts you have about the podcast and what we're trying to do here.
Kate: In terms of closing thoughts, I think I think you and I are on the same page, and probably both in some agreement that I think we need to help people reframe how they think about risk and failure. I think a lot of that involves helping people unlearn things, there's a lot of behaviors that I think actually Have have created some beliefs, particularly in our younger generations around the fact that they need to produce, they need to be perfect, they can't mess up because it's gonna impact their ability to get in college or this or that or the other thing. And so I think there's some behaviors and and beliefs that we need to, you know, unlearn some behaviors and change perspective on some beliefs, as I think we need to think about how we empower, and as a result, and the flip side of that, sometimes how we currently disempower the unexperienced. And I say that from, you know, a perspective of working with, with young people, right? They have ideas and an energy that I think can often get brushed aside by those of us I put myself into that category, who perceived that because we're more seasoned and we have more experience, because we've been around longer, we can fall really into the trap of thinking Well, we've already tried that and You know, wisdom and mile knowing about, you know, the potential successes of something that can really get in the way of making truly great things happen. And so, you know, for us to think about how we empower the unexperienced. I'm not going to just put that in an age category, I think, you know, people who come from different disciplines that are invited to think about a problem, they may not have a great depth of experience working with that topic, but can they provide some insights that would just be really important for people to hear or learn from? So? You know, I think those two things that we need to help people reframe the way they think about risk and failure, and then the way that that the rest of us collectively are willing to empower the unexperienced.
Chuck: Well, this will be food for thought for our next conversation. Because the first piece of advice we're going to give them as I don't empower you, you empower yourself. And so we have to teach People is how to do this themselves. And I think that's one of the first steps that process but we'll say that for another podcast, love it can't wait. I you know, I hope that you and your students will let us know when there's something that you all think we can do better, or that there's a subject that we need to have more discussion on, you know it. And I also want to take this chance to thank you and Dr. repeller. This has been an incredible opportunity not only encouraged me to write the book, but give me the opportunity to do this podcast I've we've already recorded 10 different guests, and I've learned so much. And it's really taking some initial thoughts, and we're able to go so much deeper. And I'm so excited about sharing these conversations because I think when people hear stories from different places and different perspectives, they're gonna realize they can do this themselves.
Kate: Well, Chuck, thank you for sharing your energy. Your insights, your expertise with all of us, and for sharing them through your forthcoming book, which I'm so excited about. So we're really looking forward to where this podcast is gonna take you and take all of us on the journey along the way.
Chuck: Great, Kate, thanks for being here.